06 Liberty Diesel EGR

[hankdz]

We purchased a 2006 Liberty Diesel in June this year. It replaces a 1992 Cherokee with 235,000 miles and many dings and dents and anticipating many dollars would be spent on it and ... well you get the picture.
The reason given for selling the Liberty was that the EGR had to be replaced once. Vehicle was two years old and 22,000 miles. Paid really reasonable price for it. Also the previous owner used it as a tow-behind on a monster RV. Still has front tow gear including braking and light operator stuff hooked up. It's not in the way so I left it there.
It just passed 27,000 miles and the EGR must be replaced again. I don't know when it was replaced the first time. When I brought it into the local Jeep dealer I was asked if I used bio-Diesel as a fuel. Answer is no; however, I don't know whether the previous owner might have used any.
Also, I read an old post by guysmiley dated January of 2007 regarding the carbon dust problems in EGRs inherent with VW Diesels. The post was in reply to a question regarding Diesel swap in a Cherokee.
After all of that preamble stuff above, here's my question. Is here a similar problem with the EGR in the Liberty Diesel? If so, is there a permanent fix for it? Is there a problem with using bio-Diesel? Vehicle will be out of manufacturer warranty in April 2009. Do have extended warranty until 100,000 or 2014, but not interested in having to use it every few thousand miles.
Oh, one other thing, the engine is the 2.8 Litre Italian turbo-charged item. I will say this for it, it runs like a champ, lots of get-up-and-go, excellent fuel mileage (35 highway, 25 city and off-road), and the size is what my wife likes about it as she is the principal driver.
Thanks for any assistance.

 

[SteelHeadz]

That i know of, the EGR on the 2.8L Turbo Diesel is not a common issue although i still have not checked to see if there are any cases pertaining to the EGR. I will try to do some research on this hopefully tonight. In Regards to your Question on using Bio-Diesels, I Strongly Recommend that you stay away from them unless you can afford to buy the programmable injectors that came with that engine. Each one of the injectors has their own Serial Number and are programmed on the ECU. The cost of replacing Each one of the injectors is around $830.00 without labor. i hope this is enough to convince you not to use Bio-Diesel on your Liberty. they seem to work on the old Diesels but not after the Diesel Requirements became a 15PPM from a 500PPM.

 

[SteelHeadz]

I forgot to ask you what the DTC is. also do you drive this on the Highway most of the time or does it spend most of it's time at lower RPMs?.

 

[hankdz]

Steelheadz
Thanks for the info so far. Shall take your advice and not use bio Diesel.
Not familiar with term "DTC."
Driving is thus: We live off road. Every time we leave the property it's 9 plus miles to a real road. The first mile and a half is spent in first gear going down the mountain. Coming back is first and second gear running back up the mountain. Miles 1 1/2 through 9 are at speeds not exceeding 30 mph, on a good day. The car is never driven less than 12 miles before shutting engine down. That's the nearest store for a gallon of milk or liter of Jack Black. Winter time is all four wheel drive going down the mountain, same coming back up. When we've had a chance to grade the road in the summer we can run in two wheel drive up and down.

 

[SteelHeadz]

Sorry. DTC means Diagnostic Trouble Code.It would only be evident if your check engine light is on then the service station , with the use of a Scantool can retrieve that DTC. As for the Speed related Question, Straight from experience and Knowledge on EGR equipped Vehicles particularly Diesels, they seem to prefer getting opened up every once in a while. if you do that, you will notice a Big Black cloud of soot come out of your exaust, thou it's not un-common for a diesel to blow out black smoke, that's the same soot that plugs up the EGR if it's often driven at low RPM's. This is a Proven Fact on a 6.7 Dodge Diesel equipped with a particulate filter. eventually, the soot gets enough accumulated in the filter and the Engine never see's a 70MPH in a 35 or more minutes of drivetime then the filter is plugged up at 100%. Your Vehicle however does not have this filter, but the EGR will suffer in this case. not saying by driving the veh. on the highway around 65-70mph all the time will mean you'll never have a problem with the EGR , it will just prolong it's life expectancy. If there is a Check engine Light on , let us know what it is so we can figure out if this is a Mechanical or Electrical issue.

 

[hankdz]

Yes to check engine light. That's what got me to contact the dealer. I wasn't told, nor did I ask what trouble code they found. I will ask that question when they replace the EGR next week.
By opened up, do you mean extreme high rpm's or just normal highway driving at 65 to 70 mph? If you mean the former, I just don't make it a habit to drive in a jack rabbit fashion. I do, however, drive on interstate highways with 65 and 70 mph speed limits, but not frequently. I average driving at those speeds about twice a month. When we do that driving it is for an extended period for many hours. We have two vehicles and try to alternate using them so they both age and are used equally so the diesel might average driving on the highway once a month. Should that be sufficient for maintaining the EGR?

 

[SteelHeadz]

What i Meant with "Open Up" is a WOT(Wide Open Throttle). The New Diesels, Particularly the one's equipped with EGR's likes to be driven hard every so often with People who drives on the highway most of the time in mind. Let us know what the DTC is and we'll see what are the possible causes for that EGR issue. as for the Warranty, That can be Voided if there is any indication of bio- fuel or Hot box use, so be careful what you decide on during that time.

 

[hankdz]

SteelHeadz
I just returned from a day at the dealer's shop. Here's what I learned.
They replaced the EGR and a valve connected with that. They found gunk (not carbon dust) in the old EGR, and both the air hose leading from the intercooler (IC) to the EGR and the IC. No gunk in the system before the IC. They cleaned the air line leading from the IC to the EGR. The EGR bolts directly to the intake manifold.
Here's the story according to service manager. They have found this condition in a few of the Diesel Liberty's always due to using either straight bio-oil or bio diesel as fuel. It does not affect the fuel side of the equation only the air side. Also, after cleaning all of the parts mentioned above, as long as no more bio stuff is used, there is never a repeat of the problem. They have a few with over 100,000 miles that, after being cleaned, have had no further problems.
Answer to your DTC question is the code was an electrical code. The manager did not remember which one, but he did remember it was electrical. Apparently there is a small electric motor in the EGR that operates the gate, so that might have been the problem code. He did say the EGR motor was gunked up so maybe the code showed that it was inoperable or not operating properly.
I have never used bio anything in it. I bought the vehicle used with 22,000 miles and now has 27,400 miles. It apparently was the previous owner who used that stuff in it. According to the service manager the EGR has been replaced three times now. Twice before by previous owner.
It looks as if I am going to need to clean the IC and the intake manifold in order to solve this one. Do you know if there is any kind of chemical agent that can be used to clean the gunk without removing the IC and the intake manifold? As it stands now I'll be on the hook for the labor to clean it. According to the flat rate book it is about 9 hours of time at the dealer's rate of $89 per hour.

 

[SteelHeadz]

Unfortunately the only Cleaner that i know of is a Diesel turbo charger cleaner from Mopar part#68044565AA. i would not use any Flammable cleaners on the intake or intercooler due to posible engine Runaway..consult with the Dealer before you use this cleaner.. Glad to hear that it just needs Cleaning. 9hrs. of labor sucks thou.

 

[hankdz]

Sucks is right. I have more information, however. Checked two other web pages for information. This one L.O.S.T. KJ/KK - Liberty Owners Special Team :: View topic - SEGR Install As told by --gmctd and this one L.O.S.T. KJ/KK - Liberty Owners Special Team :: View topic - OLD NAVY: Tech Discussion of MAP Sensor/Boost Pressure Senso. They are on the subject of crapped up air passages in the CRD.
After that research I got curiouser and curiouser. So I contacted the local Dodge dealer who services many Cummins Diesel engines. The service manager told me that the Cummins uses the Mopar chemical cleaner you mentioned. In some models there is a port already installed in the turbo, while in others they must drill and tap a port to introduce the chemical agent. It takes about two containers of the agent to clean a Cummins six. I suppose it would take about the same to clean the Motofiori 4 as well. However, they can't do the work for me because my CRD is still in warranty.
They recommended a Jeep dealer located about 70 miles from us. I have an appointment with them for jan 5, 2009. That's the earliest they can see me as their Diesel expert is on holiday until then.
I'll keep the site posted with any new knowledge I gain.

 

[SteelHeadz]

Please do keep us posted. I did my Research and here's what i got. From 2002 KJ Liberty/ 2.5 4 cyl 16v turbo Diesel to the last date of production of the KJ body which is 2006/2.8 4cyl turbo diesel, there is No Service bulletin or even in the service procedure that the Turbo manifold is to be Drilled like the Cummins 6.7 turbo. I'm curious what that dealer is going to do.

 

[hankdz]

Promised to keep site posted on this issue. I took the Liberty CRD to the second dealer on the 5th of January as planned. They checked the engine light on issue and found it to be that old codes had not been erased when the new EGR was installed. So they erased old codes and reset the computer. Then I went on my way.
I stopped about thirty miles up the road to drop a package at a post office. When I came out and restarted the engine, the check engine light re lit and stayed on.
I phoned the dealer immediately and he told me to bring it right back. I was about half way home and my wife wasn't in the mood to return so I made an appointment to have it checked tomorrow.
I was wondering whether it might be the computer gizmo itself?
Two other issues were addressed successfully. First, the check tire pressure system was working. It turned out that the tire pressure gauge that I used was on the fritz. The dealer pressurized the tires. The old gauge was reading about 7 psi higher than the actual pressure. It seemed funny that might be the answer because the tires seemed very hard. Anyway, I ditched the old gauge and purchased a new one. I checked the pressure with both and sure enough the new one read lower than the old one. Second, the new dealer is not aware of any procedure to drill and tap the turbo charger either. I figure that is a no go.
I will post again when the saga of the check engine light reveals an answer that results in both no light and a solution that makes sense.

 

[SteelHeadz]

Thanks for the latest update. let us know how everything goes on the next visit for the SES lamp.

 

[hankdz]

It's me again. I was at the dealer's for the check of the Check Engine light yesterday, Tuesday the 13th of January 2009. They checked the codes it was giving that time and determined that the EGR Controller was in need of replacement. Apparently it is a separate issue from the EGR Valve. They had none in stock so it's a trip back on Friday to have that part replaced. I will keep y'all appraised as to the progress of this saga.

 

[SteelHeadz]

It's possible that the EGR issue has been the controller failure to begin with. I hope theyr'e finnally gonna Fix your Jeep.

 

[hankdz]

OK
EGR flow control valve replaced. I was there about 1 1/2 hours. They turned me loose and I went to a grocery for my wife. As I left the grocer's the check engine light relit. It was across the street from the dealer's so i went right back. They were decidedly perplexed as was I. They took it right back in and after another hour or so they told me that it is a failed air intake pressure sensor. Also told me that the codes they found when checking had no explanation. They had to call Chrysler for interpretation. The Chrysler rep told them that the air intake pressure sensor must be replaced any time the EGR valve and/or the EGR flow control valve is replaced. The service manager had some choice comments about the lack of information in manuals.
He also told me they found a lot of oil in the location of the sensor and they will clean it out when they install the new one. I asked about the oil and soot in the air intake system, he alluded to the possibility they could clean that at the same time. We'll see because from what the other dealer's rep said it is a major undertaking to remove and replace the parts.
Of course, there was no air pressure sensor in stock so it will be another trip next week. I'll let y'all know the outcome.
As an aside I spoke with the service manager about the fixes some folks have done to eliminate the oil in the air intake issue and the bypass of the EGR to eliminate the soot issue. He thought it was great idea and recommended it heartily. Of course, he was only speaking for himself and not the dealership. However, he did say that a common sense approach would likely be better than the systems as they now are designed. As soon as I get the beasty back from the new air intake pressure sensor install I plan to modify the crankcase ventilation stream so that the oil does not enter the cold air intake. I'm not impressed by the designs I've seen that are offered in the aftermarket so I am noodling one around myself. I will let y'all know whether I made it work.

 

[hankdz]

Here we are again.
On 26 Jan 2009, replaced the intake pressure sensor. They drove the KJ for about twenty minutes, shut it down a couple of times, started it and then declared it was ready to go. I stopped at the grocer's again after leaving the dealer's. When I came out no light ... good sign. I was feeling quite elated. Drove toward home, 70 miles away, part I-81 part Virginia route 130, part Amherst County roads. I went about fifty miles when I was on 130 about where it crosses into Amherst County heading east right at the crest of the Blue Ridge. BINGO, light came on.
There is no cell phone service at that location so i waited until I was nearer to civilization. I called the service manager and let him in on the news. He asked if we could leave the vehicle with him for awhile, he would provide a vehicle to use. I told him I would call when I could get it to him.
Weather's been frightful up here. Right after I got home the tempeerature headed south and didn't stop until it reached single digits. Next couple of days we had freezing rain. That left about 1/4 inch ice covereing the entire mountain, but especially our drive. Trees down, power out for about a day used the fireplace for heat. We didn't leave the house for five days. Then it thawed a little, melting just enough of the ice to show some gravel through it in patches. I also put chains on the rear wheels.
A couple of days after the ice went, it snowed. We had about four inches up here. In the valley there was nothing on the roads and only a dusting in the fields. We were did get out and about but didn't do that very much, only necessities. We did make it to church this weekend, unlike last when we couldn't get out.
I expect I will call the dealer this week to bring the KJ to him so he can look it over real good. I still wonder if it might be the computer itself as they have replaced all of the parts that are in that line where the codes are leading them??? I suppose we'll see what the answer is eventually.
When I learn anything more I'll post.

 

[hankdz]

Here's the scoop on finalizing this issue for the time being. The good news is everything works as intended by Jeep engineers. Now here's the "rest of the story."
See my post above for the 12/15/08. The bio Diesel has nothing whatsoever to do with the issues. I still haven't used any, but it just doesn't matter. In fact, everyone I've contacted who does use it says it improves the exhaust side of the equation.
On the 19th of this month I dropped off the vehicle at the Dealer who actually is willing to go the extra mile to help me. FYI the first Dealer is Craft Chrysler Jeep of Lynchburg, Virginia; the dealer that actually solved the issues is Berglund Chrysler Jeep of Roanoke, Virginia. I picked it up yesterday the 25th of February 2009.
The gunk that Craft found throughout the intake system was the culprit. They were going to charge me at least 9 hours of labor at $79 per hour to clean it. Berglund did the job and Jeep stood for it. No charge to me. The job was described as having to use a putty knife to scrape out the intake manifold and the hoses and to soak them in a dissolving solution to remove the gunk. The same for the intercooler.
As related above, the EGR valve and the EGR cooler were previously replaced. They were replaced again on this occassion after only two months and about 1,700 miles. The gunk had gotten into them and destroyed them. Thus the CEL could not be extinguished without replacing them yet again. Thank God it's Waranteed (TGIW).
They drove the Liberty for 34 miles with no light coming on. I drove it home, about another 70 miles with no light coming on. I believe they solved the problem. Now I intend to try to solve it for the little Jeep's lifetime.
As soon as I picked it up I went under the hood and disconnected the CCV hose leading from the CCV valve on top of the engine to the intake hose from the turbo to the intercooler. I plugged the CCV with cotton balls and taped it shut. That temporarily stopped any oil from entering the air intake system. The permanent fix is one of two. I am not thrilled with the equipment available for one of the fixes and I reject the other.
One fix is to install a Provent filter. I like the concept but do not like the appearance of the installation. The concept is to take the air/oil mixture from the top of the engine and reroute it through a filter to remove the oil sending the gaseous part through the air intake. That should satisfy the EPA and not pour oil into the intake. I am working on an alternative to the Provent and when it is ready and I have driven it a while I will post about any success or failure I have experienced.
The other fix is to simply remove the factory hose from the CCV valve on top of the engine and put a plug in the hose so it is not putting unfiltered air into the air intake system. The second part of this fix is to install a three to four feet long 3/4 inch plastic hose onto the CCV valve and route it to the underside of the engine. That will disipate the crankcase venting to the atmosphere, much of which the EPA does not want. I reject that method as a permanent fix; however, I am employing it temporarily until my filter is installed.
So, you ask, what does all that accomplish? Here's what I have learned from researching the issue. By-the-by, much of my information came from the L.O.S.T. KJs website regarding their threads on the CRD, and other came from the Diesel mechanic at Berglund.
By removing the oil from the gas/oil mixture coming from the CCV the vehicle for forming the "gunk" in the engine air intake system is removed. Only the soot from the exhaust system recirculating valve remains. Apparently the oil and soot combine to make a very unhealthy cocktail for the air intake. Combining that with the heat from the engine forms a paste that coats everything in its path. That includes the air intake hose from the turbo to the intercooler, the intercooler, the hose form the intercooler to the EGR valve, the EGR cooler, the MAP sensor (which is easy to clean) and the air intake manifold. All of the parts mentioned were included in the nine hour estimate to remove the parts and thoroughly clean them. TGIW and done by Berglund.
Right now the Liberty sets in the garage with hood up while I am researching avilable parts for my filter design.
Hope this information and my experience helps someone else along the way.
Best regards, Hank

 

[SteelHeadz]

I'm Glad you got e'r done..