Hey all, I have a 1978 CJ7 with a 4" lift on 33's. When i bought it, it had only been used as a trail jeep, in the mud and on rocks. The driverside ball joints and wheel bearings were completely wore out so i have replaced them, the tierod on the passenger side had a loose nut so i tightened it up and put a new pin in. Took it to an alignment shop to be aligned. It is running MUCH better but is still walking to the point my wife doesn't enjoy riding in it. I have put her in the driver seat with the jeep running and had her turn the steering wheel and there is some play in both shackles and the steering box mount. I have purchased replacement shackles with poly bushings (Rugged Ridge greaseable from Quadratec) and Rusty's offroad extreme heavy duty steering box bracket. I have checked and the leafs have shims to account for the 4" lift so the caster angle should be correct (although i haven't checked to make sure). Does anyone have any other ideas for what could be causing the side to side walking?
1978 CJ7 walking issue
- Thread starter Chewboi
- Start date
Bounty__Hunter
Super Moderator
CJ's are notoriously loose in the front end. New balljoints, tierod ends, and spring bushings are a great start. Good idea on the steering box brace, the thin factory unit allows a lot of play. Once all that's tightened up, it's a matter of having the correct toe-in and caster.
If it's still not tight enough after all these efforts, consider a shackle reversal kit. It puts the shackles behind the axle so the front axle tracks behind solid spring hangers.
If it's still not tight enough after all these efforts, consider a shackle reversal kit. It puts the shackles behind the axle so the front axle tracks behind solid spring hangers.
69jeepcj
New member
Chewboi, You have started in the right place. Probably didn't need to replace your whole shackles, just the bushings. Replace your spring bushings as well if you can (at least on the shackle end of the springs). You have bought a new steering mount which is good, but look into steering box braces and get or make one (will make a huge difference in your handling). check tie rod ends are good and tight. let us know
So this weekend was full of ups and downs. I got the new shackles on Saturday, only took a couple hours and was pretty straight forward. However on Sunday things went downhill quickly. The goal was to tighten the steering box bracket, or replace it all together. I got the bumper removed from the CJ and had no possible way to get inside the frame to put a backup on the nuts to be able to tighten the bolts holding the steering box bracket. This being said, it was also impossible to remove the bolts holding the bracket. I used a grinding wheel to cut a small hole in the outside of the frame to try and get a wrench in on the nut, it did not work. So i began making a larger hole with still no luck. I wanted to stop there before i cut my frame up too much. Does anyone have any tips or secret tools that i can use to be able to get in and backup those nuts that are INSIDE the frame? My friend can weld a piece of steel into the hole that i made so i do not think i messed the frame up in the long term, i'm just very frustrated that i cut everything open and was still not able to get in and tighten the bolts. Any tips/hints/secrets would be greatly appreciated.
Matt
Matt
69jeepcj
New member
Its been a long time since I had a fully boxed frame. I do remember having to cut into the frame once to get to a nut, I used a cut off wheel and made about a 2" square cut out. Those nuts are supposed to be welded inside the frame (from factory) and as you have found they dont always hold. I remember fishing wrenches inside the frame to get to some, real pain. once you get the bolts out, I would have your friend weld that nut back onto the frame or drill all the way through the frame and use longer bolts.
Bounty__Hunter
Super Moderator
Tack the nuts with a stick welder, or cut them out all together from the outside.
RestorationRides
New member
Here is another idea...
Take the bolts out and remove steering box. Acquire a length of thick-wall reasonably high strength steel tube. NOTE: The ID on the tube should be a snug fit around the bolts you just removed. The OD on the tube should be at least 2 x ID.
Drill out the existing holes in the frame to the OD of the tube and remove the inside nuts at the same time. Be sure to retain original center to center spacing on your bolt holes and keep drill at 90 degrees to frame face.
Cut tube into multiple lengths of dimensions equal to outside dimensions of frame measured at bolt holes. Hammer press tubes into holes. NOTE: You should pre-fillet both the OD of the tubes at their ends and the outside circumference of the drilled holes in the frame (before assembly) to retain good weld penetration after grinding welded areas smooth and flat after welding.
Weld all around all tubes at frame.
Grind smooth and chamfer holes.
Paint.
Acquire longer high strength bolts and reinstall steering box with through bolts, heavy flat washers, and locknuts.
NOTE: Alternatively, you can weld nuts onto opposite side of frame from steering box at through holes after installing tubes in earlier steps.
Yes, it is a PITA to do all of the above, but the tubes are necessary to avoid frame crush and steering box loosening over time...:-(
Also, before you install tubes and weld up, paint everything inside frame and outside of tubes while you have access...
GB
Sent from my Z970 using Tapatalk
Take the bolts out and remove steering box. Acquire a length of thick-wall reasonably high strength steel tube. NOTE: The ID on the tube should be a snug fit around the bolts you just removed. The OD on the tube should be at least 2 x ID.
Drill out the existing holes in the frame to the OD of the tube and remove the inside nuts at the same time. Be sure to retain original center to center spacing on your bolt holes and keep drill at 90 degrees to frame face.
Cut tube into multiple lengths of dimensions equal to outside dimensions of frame measured at bolt holes. Hammer press tubes into holes. NOTE: You should pre-fillet both the OD of the tubes at their ends and the outside circumference of the drilled holes in the frame (before assembly) to retain good weld penetration after grinding welded areas smooth and flat after welding.
Weld all around all tubes at frame.
Grind smooth and chamfer holes.
Paint.
Acquire longer high strength bolts and reinstall steering box with through bolts, heavy flat washers, and locknuts.
NOTE: Alternatively, you can weld nuts onto opposite side of frame from steering box at through holes after installing tubes in earlier steps.
Yes, it is a PITA to do all of the above, but the tubes are necessary to avoid frame crush and steering box loosening over time...:-(
Also, before you install tubes and weld up, paint everything inside frame and outside of tubes while you have access...
GB
Sent from my Z970 using Tapatalk
greg92jeepxj
Official Supporter
I second this advice . Not only is it proper repair , but it is a safety concern . The cj5 ( and even the cj7 ) has had its share of safety complaint when driven by someone who wasn't being mindful of its short wheelbase and short width .
These comcerns your experiencing and will others likely , have been well documented over the years . I too must tend with the same issues you currently are and likely will find more when I begin the planned restoration work of my '73 cj5.
I was already aware of steering box mounting issues that are likely to involve cutting or grinding when I reach the sand blasting stage . Reinforced chassis on trucks and cars during restoration have had this done to correct weak spots of under building flaws from factory . Drilling level through the chassis is key . I agree that inside of any chassis should be treated for rust and rust prevention . The insertion of sleeves and welded securely in place will correct this . Don't worry about cutting off fasteners , they can be replaced . Quality grade 8 bolts should be used. The proper placement of the sleeves with ani seize compound is the key to getting the job done right . You will be happy it was done and not fear any disassembly in the future . The steering box will be securely mounted too . No more excessive steering wander . Just a jeep that can hold the road .
These comcerns your experiencing and will others likely , have been well documented over the years . I too must tend with the same issues you currently are and likely will find more when I begin the planned restoration work of my '73 cj5.
I was already aware of steering box mounting issues that are likely to involve cutting or grinding when I reach the sand blasting stage . Reinforced chassis on trucks and cars during restoration have had this done to correct weak spots of under building flaws from factory . Drilling level through the chassis is key . I agree that inside of any chassis should be treated for rust and rust prevention . The insertion of sleeves and welded securely in place will correct this . Don't worry about cutting off fasteners , they can be replaced . Quality grade 8 bolts should be used. The proper placement of the sleeves with ani seize compound is the key to getting the job done right . You will be happy it was done and not fear any disassembly in the future . The steering box will be securely mounted too . No more excessive steering wander . Just a jeep that can hold the road .
RestorationRides
New member
Good suggestions on the Grade 8 hardware and the anti-seize, Greg.
Also, check following:
1. axle to axle centerline distances on both driver and pax side of vehicle.
2. Frame to ground distances at 4 corners of vehicle. NOTE: Driver's side can be slightly higher (unloaded vehicle) to compensate for default single pax useage.
3. As mentioned by someone previously, check for frame damage and cracks. Very important.
4. Check rims for aggressive offsets on disc faces. This creates a mechanical multiplier to any dynamic forces, amplifies free play issues and accelerates wear of components.
5. Check tires for hidden flaws in cores due to abuse (including running overly low tire pressures at high speeds on road having caused prior overheat damage).
6. Check for worn wheel bearings (all 4 corners) which can exacerbate running wide and sharp shouldered tires run at lower pressures. The tires can walk from edge to edge especially at higher speeds.
7. Check tires for excessive load capacity for vehicle application. In this situation, tires will have to be run at unreasonably low pressures to ensure softer ride on highway. This will result in the contact patch being distributed excessively to tire shoulders, resulting in excessive tire wall flex and shoulder to shoulder walking issues (especially with worn chassis components...)
GB
Sent from my Z970 using Tapatalk
Also, check following:
1. axle to axle centerline distances on both driver and pax side of vehicle.
2. Frame to ground distances at 4 corners of vehicle. NOTE: Driver's side can be slightly higher (unloaded vehicle) to compensate for default single pax useage.
3. As mentioned by someone previously, check for frame damage and cracks. Very important.
4. Check rims for aggressive offsets on disc faces. This creates a mechanical multiplier to any dynamic forces, amplifies free play issues and accelerates wear of components.
5. Check tires for hidden flaws in cores due to abuse (including running overly low tire pressures at high speeds on road having caused prior overheat damage).
6. Check for worn wheel bearings (all 4 corners) which can exacerbate running wide and sharp shouldered tires run at lower pressures. The tires can walk from edge to edge especially at higher speeds.
7. Check tires for excessive load capacity for vehicle application. In this situation, tires will have to be run at unreasonably low pressures to ensure softer ride on highway. This will result in the contact patch being distributed excessively to tire shoulders, resulting in excessive tire wall flex and shoulder to shoulder walking issues (especially with worn chassis components...)
GB
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RestorationRides
New member
One other thing that I forgot to mention before...
Check the axles to frame reference points at all four corners of the vehicle. If one side of one (or both) axles is ahead of the other side, the axle is going to crab to the opposite side...
GB
Sent from my Z970 using Tapatalk
Check the axles to frame reference points at all four corners of the vehicle. If one side of one (or both) axles is ahead of the other side, the axle is going to crab to the opposite side...
GB
Sent from my Z970 using Tapatalk
Southern Wolf
New member
I haven't seen any mention of tightening up the steering gear its self. My Jeep walked on my and I simply tightened the gear all the way down then backed of a 1/4 turn and it has been great since. You may want to think about replacing the gear box at some point. Make sure there is grease in it. If your friend is a good fabricator cut the piece of frame out with the nuts and have him make up a piece with the nuts welded on and put it back in the frame. Good luck.
RestorationRides
New member
I gotta agree with you Southern Wolf. Just a note of caution there though Chewboi. As SW said, you might be better off changing out the steering box if it really is excessively worn. If you try to tighten up an excessively worn gearbox, it will seem to work great
driving near straight ahead but may lock up on you as you turn further either to right or left as that area has not been worn down like the center section has and so then the tolerances will be way too tight nearer the limits of travel. I suggest you check it thoroughly before you go for a drive with it make sure if you tighten it then it moves smoothly through the entire steering range without any tendency to jam up...:-(
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driving near straight ahead but may lock up on you as you turn further either to right or left as that area has not been worn down like the center section has and so then the tolerances will be way too tight nearer the limits of travel. I suggest you check it thoroughly before you go for a drive with it make sure if you tighten it then it moves smoothly through the entire steering range without any tendency to jam up...:-(
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RestorationRides
New member
IMHO, SW, I don't think that sticking with the stock setup is a good idea knowing the tendency of these vehicles to have frame to steering box issues. If he was running close to a stock set of wheels and not subjecting the drive line to the extreme forces of off-roading then it would probably be sufficient. Both the much larger tires and the off-road situation warrant really fixing that steering box tightly to the frame and reinforcing the frame section to eliminate flex and crush. I am not saying this just to be antagonistic or anything so I hope you don't take it the wrong way, but I still stand by running steel tubes through the frame holes, properly welding it all up, and then (using high performance fasteners) put it all back together again.
GB
Sent from my Z970 using Tapatalk
GB
Sent from my Z970 using Tapatalk
greg92jeepxj
Official Supporter
I second that ! If an attempt is made to adjust lash on a power steering box , the minimum is poor steering ,'excess steering play and wander . The worst is destruction if too much play is taken out and the sector shaft binds with the worm gear . Hydraulics will eat the box up in a hurry ! Just say no !
As southern wolf posted , small adjustments are all that can be made at a time , road tests to immediately follow . As 69jeepcj posted , do not attempt unless you really know what your doing . No experimenting , this is not for the faint of heart . Damage to a steering box is $$. I just changed one and a pump on my '92 Cherokee over the summer . 176,000 plus , they did their job .
I have an 81 CJ and replaced the steering box with one from a Hummer. This is a variable steering box. Conbined with a brace, this really helped. Also ran my 37" tires with about 20 lbs of pressure.
